Ep 155: Feelings Check-In about Modern Spirituality (Deana's Going to Church)

[00:00] The Feelings Check-In is a podcast for people who love to listen to two women overshare about the challenges of building a business, navigating careers in tech, and trying to have a personal life. I'm Natasha Hoskins. I'm Dina Burke. And this is Boys Club. Wait, is it just Boys Club? It's just Boys Club. The Boys Club podcast? No. No. [00:20] Just boy stuff. [00:22] We have a fun, I think, a little fun episode here. We took a left turn. [00:26] For sure. [00:27] For sure. [00:30] This is the feelings check in. I'm Natasha. I'm Dina. This is a podcast where we talk about our feelings in relationship to our work and our lives. [00:41] and all of the things around in and around those topics. And today we are talking about religion and spirituality, which [00:51] is we've never talked about on this podcast [00:53] yeah we for so many reasons quite uh [00:56] It didn't feel very, I mean, it is the most intimate. [01:00] kind of topic but [01:02] I feel very comfortable talking about it. I know that you have all sorts of feelings, which we'll get into in the podcast. I'm going to hit the editing bay pretty, pretty hard here. So enjoy. [01:13] It's time for a more open, inclusive, and transparent financial system. A system that serves nearly everyone, everywhere, all the time. That's why we love today's sponsor, Kraken. Kraken is a crypto platform that provides a super simple on-ramp to the world of crypto with a 24-7 support team. Crypto transcends physical and imaginary borders. No matter where you are, you can send funds easily and quickly to almost any part of the world. Plus, forget about waiting times and waiting lines. You can send, receive, and trade crypto anywhere near instantly.

[01:42] I think it's interesting to do a weekly podcast on feelings. [02:05] because sometimes [02:07] Like over the past couple days, I've had this weird [02:09] feeling where I it's I'm feeling so much. [02:12] there's it's so noisy you know but there's not one specific thing any yeah if i were to like part of what the feeling check-in is is like we're pulling out a headliner feeling uh-huh it's a it's a single you know right we're doing a marketing campaign around a lead single or like and it's like no one wants to hear the whole album no no one wants to hear the whole album on the deep cuts and so i think especially in days where it feels [02:39] Like there's a lot of small things. [02:42] elevating any of those one to be the subject of the feelings check-in [02:45] It's like it would feel petty or weird or like I'm focusing in on like a weird thing too much. [02:52] Totally. It's getting amplified and 30 minutes on this feeling is not what's needed. I also feel like something that we've done recently is when we sat down to be like, what are some feelings we could talk about? It's like, we could talk about money. We could talk about being bad at sales. We could talk about the industry. And then we're like...

[03:13] We've really talked about quite a few of these things quite a few times. [03:16] Those have been reviewed. But today I feel excited about what we're going to talk about. Also, I feel like one of the things that we're trying to do is talk about an experience or feeling that... [03:28] seems relatable or somewhat universal or somewhat related to how other people in our community and in the wider Boys Club audience, things that people are actually thinking about and feeling and trying to sort through themselves because... [03:41] Who wants to listen to two yappers yap about things that they don't relate to at all? Totally. And so what I'm excited about today is spirituality. Mm-hmm. [03:50] We've never talked about this on the show. We've never. Yeah, we've stayed pretty clear from... G-O-D. [03:58] So I've been going to church. Which is... [04:02] hilarious so I just feel like it's important to set some context for for [04:08] Folks who don't know me, I... [04:10] was born and raised in Woodstock, New York. Not... [04:15] posh second home Woodstock New York like crunchy hippie old hippie Woodstock New York and [04:21] for color. [04:22] my eighth birthday present was [04:25] I got my charts read, my astrology charts. [04:29] I'm like health food store born and raised on the streets of... [04:32] that type of parents and mom environment yeah environment never never ever went to church and like was not it was never part of my upbringing also something that people don't know is that upstate new york is

[04:47] one of the least [04:48] Churched. [04:50] areas of the United States. I didn't know that. [04:52] Yeah, it's like deeply unreligious as a region of the United States. [04:57] Interesting. [04:58] Well, that has changed now where I am today in Nashville, Tennessee. You are in the epicenter of religion. I really am in the heartland. So, grew up not religious, not spiritual, and [05:10] I find myself now [05:11] going to [05:35] then... [05:36] that kicked off some exploration. It kicked off an exploration. [05:41] Now, I feel like it's important to say that [05:47] I actually don't believe in [05:49] Jesus. [05:50] I can't, I can't, I go to church. [05:52] I can't get there with the Jesus stuff. [05:55] But I have been finding, I'm not like fully committed. It's not like some grand statement that I'm making on this podcast. But like. You're like, I am now an evangelical Christian. I'd like you to. [06:07] I have been finding. [06:09] and we've talked about this a lot, but I have been finding something really nice [06:13] in having a weekly ritual of going somewhere outside my home

[06:20] And... [06:21] and focusing my attention outward. [06:24] And I find the... [06:26] the conversation in this church I've been going to around being in service of other people. [06:31] and being in service of your community to be [06:34] really, really refreshing. [06:37] in [06:38] the other stuff that I have in my life where it's so turned inward [06:42] and thinking about myself all the time and like what I, and my ambition and, you know, and of course by extension my kids and family and all that. But like, I have found it really [06:51] And I think that was my experience when I first went to the [06:54] community that you were part of was like I hadn't really been in rooms where I [06:58] the conversation was [07:00] solely focused on like how can you be in service of other human beings and and selfless in that way and charitable in a way and [07:09] I found that [07:10] And I find that really beautiful. Now, I can't and I'm not getting in on the other stuff. And I don't consider myself a Christian. And I find my experience of going to the church I'm going to recently, I'm such a... [07:23] fraud in that space because I'm like I hate nobody feels I know that no I uh I don't know but [07:31] I don't, I think if they... [07:32] Anybody cool wouldn't feel that way. Anybody who's like a... [07:35] Someone you'd actually want to hang out with. Wouldn't feel that way. Maybe. I don't know. I'm actually happy to go and to be an... [07:42] an interloper in that space. [07:44] and not take the Jesus stuff and like [07:48] have it be sort of a buffet for me. I know that that's not what Christians want.

[07:51] That's not what you're supposed to do. But I find the sort of routine in it [07:56] and the [07:57] the community aspect of it to be fulfilling enough. [08:00] that I'm willing to put up with the other stuff that I don't believe in. So that's background context for people. [08:06] Well, also there, I wish I had some data on this, but I know that this is true, is that post-COVID last few years, your experience is not unique. There's been like a return to... [08:18] for specifically millennials, to religious communities, to spirituality. There's a trend specifically to people like going to church, essentially, and trying to like sort through their belief system. And that [08:33] a lot of people are having the experience of you where they're saying like, this is anecdotal that, that, [08:37] the people returning to church and being a part of religious communities as the [08:42] an upswing in the last few years, that's like something that there's data around. [08:48] And anecdotally, my experience has been there's a lot of people having a similar experience to you where they're like, yeah, I've been going to church or I've been like attending this community or I'm going I'm going to temple or. [08:59] some other... [09:01] religious establishment on a regular basis. I don't believe [09:05] It... [09:06] But I'm getting X, Y, or Z out of it. [09:09] getting community out of it. [09:11] having a space where it's not all about me. In hearing you talk about that, part of what there is some freedom for me, [09:18] is that I haven't assumed it as my identity. [09:21] Yes. It's not like I'm in the world as...

[09:25] a Christian that bringing all the baggage along with it that it does. Totally. It's like, [09:30] I'm just kind of [09:31] swimming through it. I'm willing to set aside the stuff, not only the Jesus stuff, but there's a ton of other stuff that other baggage that... [09:39] I'm like, let me name the ways. Yeah, it's really been interesting to [09:45] Thank you. [09:45] Watch you as... [09:48] one of my very close friends and someone who has no religion [09:52] in their [09:53] upbringing [09:54] I was raised extremely religious. [09:56] I [09:58] was a... [09:58] very active practicing Christian for most of my adult life. And [10:05] have an unbelievable amount of baggage around Christianity and religious spaces like [10:11] It... [10:12] when you're raised. Triggered. Triggered. Truly. Truly. No, I've literally worked up immediately. It's insane. What happens when you grow up religious? There's so, it's steeped in [10:24] every single decision and aspect of your life. And, [10:28] There's some really beautiful things about that. There are... [10:31] some very difficult things about that. And a lot of my friends that I have today were either like my long time childhood friends or [10:39] people I've known for the past like 15 years, like really like friends who are family. Many of them were also raised religious or religious, [10:47] in some sort of religious upbringing or currently are religious in some capacity. And [10:53] have so much baggage with it as well. And it's,

[10:56] so fun and I have so much envy of your experience of church and religion because it's [11:03] so pure. It's not tainted. It's not complicated. You can just kind of show up and be like, kind of like these bits. And I kind of don't like these bits. And like, it's additive in this way. And it's weird in this way. And [11:15] I'm just like a, when I am in religious society, [11:20] environments. I am just a [11:24] like a nerve an open nerve yeah yeah yeah like any little thing it's like oh my god yeah like just touch it touch it touch it and it makes it really hard to like yeah yeah [11:35] have any sort of exploration... [11:38] It just is a more complicated relationship to exploration of religion. Totally. And so anyway, as there's been this sort of like wave and trend of – [11:49] specifically tech people, I feel like getting into some [11:53] version of Christianity or Judaism primarily are the two that I'm seeing people talk a lot about. [11:58] It's so funny because I'm just like, [12:01] what the fuck is going on? Like, what is happening? And then they'll like, start to talk to me about it. And I'm just like, you don't understand the wealth of knowledge I have about this. Like, I feel so unsure of how to handle myself. Because then it's like, it's really exposing. Like, people like, whoa, I've had moments where I'm talking to someone and they're like, oh, [12:21] you were like, really know it. And I'm like, yeah, like I am expert level on this stuff. And then I had a conversation with someone in Austin. This is, sorry, I'm really going off here, but I had a conversation with someone in Austin, who you know, who I will not name names, who I do not like. And this person,

[12:38] has started to go back to church and [12:40] Do they listen to this podcast? Are they going to recognize themselves? I'm sure they don't. I'm sure this person doesn't. [12:46] And... [12:47] This person starts talking to me about... [12:50] Christianity and the church that they are attending and the specific denomination of that church, which is like a denomination essentially means like how you're interpreting the Bible and the belief system of your specific flavor of Christianity. And people get really into their denominations and they're almost like subsets of the religious practice. And yeah. [13:10] he was talking about a specific type of church that I know a lot about and was mansplaining it to me. And I was just like, I, I, [13:18] I'm going to die here because not only are we talking about it's gonna be a murder suicide. Not only am I going to kill you. I am then gonna turn the gun on myself. 100% and I was like I need to remove myself from this conversation immediately like I was like, and honestly, since then, like, I've sort of cooled off on engaging with people in it because I'm just like, I don't. [13:39] I don't know that I need to do this with people I don't deeply, deeply, deeply love. Yeah, yeah. I'm so surprised you said yes to the subject on today's podcast to take it on. Well, I know. I actually can't believe it. You were like, we'll just talk about me. And I'm like, okay, hold my, hold my beer. [13:56] anyway let's go back to the tweets okay okay so there's there's a couple tweets it's so interesting that you're saying that you see people do you're seeing a trend of people who are willing to like come in and try it out i feel very much like at least in nashville

[14:13] No one else is doing what I'm doing. And I think even when I tell people in the church I've been going to that I'm like, [14:18] Yeah, we come, but like, we're not. They're like, what? Why are you like, this is bullshit. They're like, okay. They're like, wait, why? They can't really understand it. They just can't figure it out. It's confusing. Yeah, it's very confusing. And so I don't see a lot of other people around me that are doing this same sort of exploration. Then I saw this tweet. Then I was like, oh my gosh, here I am. [14:38] So it's this guy, Luke Burgess. He goes, if people who are part of religious community report far lower rates of depression and other pathologies, and there is a stronger sense of rootedness and meaning, which is what I'm getting out of it, this idea of rootedness, then will more and more join religious groups simply to adopt their cultural practices as kind of a prophylactic setting aside any question of orthodoxy or personal commitment. [15:06] And I'm kind of like, yeah. [15:08] That's what I'm doing. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Okay. And I think I just want to clarify cultural practices. For me, there's so much baggage with especially. You're like, I am pro-life and I am anti-gaming. Of course I'm totally stepping over that. [15:26] When I hear cultural practices, I'm going to a community space every Sunday morning. [15:31] and being with my neighbors. That's what I'm meaning. [15:34] you [15:35] It's time for a more open, inclusive, and transparent financial system. A system that serves nearly everyone, everywhere, all the time. That's why we love today's sponsor, Kraken. Kraken is a crypto platform that provides a super simple on-ramp to the world of crypto with a 24-7 support team. Crypto transcends physical and imaginary borders. No matter where you are, you can send funds easily and quickly to almost any part of the world. Plus, forget about waiting times and waiting lines. You can send, receive, and trade crypto anywhere near instantly.

[16:05] b at kraken.com backslash boys club non-investment advice crypto trading involves risk of loss transfers to a third party are not available on kraken cryptocurrency services are provided to us and us territory customers by payward ventures inc pvi dba kraken view pvi's disclosures at kraken.com backslash legal backslash disclosures yes okay oh my gosh so many thoughts also i have a gay mom i just want everyone to know and like i don't it's i can't of course and i'm like all [16:35] I want to just be clear. [16:37] Totally. I know. I think... [16:39] I mean, I'm taking for granted that I know you so well, so I feel like do what you need to do, but I think nobody's... Do what you need to do, okay. I think what you're doing is beautiful. I think it's so great. I think that anything that... [16:53] pushes [16:55] humanity to think differently and be in places that they feel a little bit uncomfortable and [17:01] that producing a sense of [17:04] care and love for other people in any capacity is net positive and yeah [17:09] a good thing in the world. [17:10] what comes up for me in a tweet like that. [17:13] is [17:14] And I don't know if this just comes from [17:17] 30 years of brainwashing or if it's [17:21] partially true, but like your face- [17:24] I mean, brainwashing loosely held. I'm brainwashed in crypto. We're brainwashed every day by... Yeah, okay. [17:30] all our environments like it's not [17:33] necessarily 100% negative. But what you risk in what that tweet is stating is that you cherry pick the parts of it that feel good.

[17:43] and [17:44] the parts that are challenging and difficult and upsetting, which are usually the parts that are really sticky for-- [17:52] a reason that's [17:53] Soul level and not just surface level and feelings level. Mm-hmm. [17:58] you... [17:59] don't engage with. [18:00] which is probably where [18:02] a lot of the most rich [18:05] and meaningful experiences [18:06] beliefs and experiences happen. [18:08] in relationship to spirituality and religion. Yeah. And I think that it's really hard [18:15] because [18:16] I think that people should have an exploration of faith in any capacity. [18:21] And... [18:22] That's the thing I believe most in the world. There's a thousand things that I don't know that I believe anymore, but I really believe that [18:30] exploration of faith looks different for every single person in the world and that our lives are additive if we [18:38] Try to engage in it. [18:40] And I think what's difficult is [18:43] when you [18:45] do that, oftentimes you're opting in to a set of rules [18:50] in an established environment. [18:52] that [18:53] You can't necessarily say like, I'm all in or I'm all out. [18:56] Because that's inauthentic and that's not true to the experience of being human and being able to like take each little piece of it and hold it and make decisions around what you believe. But then. [19:07] As I was saying, the other side of that is that you just take the things that you like. [19:12] And it's very shallow. Totally. And it doesn't actually change who you are. And...

[19:18] There was another tweet that you sent from Catherine Champagne, who is such a wonderful and lovely human being. And she says, I've been seeing a lot of people get into the idea of manifesting. And I was like, oh, cute, secular prayer. That's nice. But then I realized it kind of sucks because one of the best things about prayer is that you can pray for others. [19:37] People only manifest for themselves. [19:40] And that's a really nice... [19:43] tangible example of how spirituality [19:48] modern spirituality outside of sort of [19:52] a religious practice can end up just being [19:56] a new way to... [19:58] think about yourself all the time. [19:59] Yeah, yeah. Totally. And like navel gaze. Yeah. And... [20:04] Toby Shorn had a talk at Fest called Body Futurism, and it was sort of about – [20:09] people's obsession with their selves and their bodies and the trends that we're seeing around that [20:14] in [20:15] Specifically, I think he was saying like tech communities and [20:19] There's a lot of thoughts on that talk and a lot of smart people. And honestly, I think we should have him on to talk about it. [20:23] But what I have an eye for in my own religious and spiritual practices is that, you [20:30] if there is navel gazing and obsession of myself and my interior life that [20:36] in some way, [20:38] that feeds to [20:40] love and care and... [20:43] empathy for others. And I think it's very easy for it to just be a new way to be selfish.

[20:49] and [20:50] I think what's been really beautiful about your exploration of [20:52] religion and faith is... [20:54] The thing that I have consistently heard you say and Dave say is that it has been a space where you... [21:01] turn your gaze upward and outward to other people and to the community around you. And that's my hope as people have this sort of experience is that [21:10] as they join communities and as they are in relationship with other people, that they're able to think about themselves less. Yeah. [21:17] That's actually like really good for your interior. Yeah. For a lot of people. So anyway, what do you think? Yeah. I'm remembering. [21:25] something that [21:26] Someone sent it at church once, which was... [21:29] For a generation of people, this may be true for people older or younger than us, but certainly for... [21:36] millennials, we moved into... [21:39] cities, Brooklyn or whatever city, any city, having not been raised there. [21:45] And... [21:46] the thinking is like, what can I take from this community? [21:50] Like, how can it feed me? [21:52] How can I take its resources? And I know for me, especially there had never been a single thought [22:00] in my 20s and in my early 30s when I was living in Brooklyn, it was like it was never a single thought of like how I have taken so much from this place. How can I pour back into it? Yeah. And how can I like... [22:12] How can I be additive to this community that I'm in or the city that I'm in? Or like, how can I give... [22:17] give back is not the right word but like when I first heard that I was like I hadn't it's it's

[22:23] shocking how I had never, ever had that thought ever in my life. Wow. And these are one of the moments that I'm like, I'm so envious of you because it's so... [22:34] That's like a line that you get. [22:36] A lot, right? [22:38] Oh my god. Like you're actually never really taught to care for yourself. [22:45] And like, [22:46] It's... [22:47] can be toxic but i think like totally totally [22:51] But I think it's so toxic to move into Brooklyn as a 21 year old and [22:56] just be taking, taking, taking, taking. And I think there's [22:59] A lot of people who need to hear that and setting aside the God stuff and the Jesus stuff or whatever religious practice it is, just recognizing that you live in amongst people and... [23:15] It's your... [23:16] obligation, honestly, to like care for the people around you, especially in your immediate proximity. What I'm envious of when you talk about it is that [23:24] you hear it and it resonates so deeply and it's like oh that's such a truth of the world and [23:30] I agree with my whole heart, but when [23:36] You have... [23:38] heard that your whole life and then you've also heard that as like [23:42] what you've seen in practice is people who are, [23:45] are martyrs about that, about the like giving and intentionally have [23:52] made their lives much harder and much more difficult because they have a sense that that will make them closer to God. And what it actually does is makes them sometimes really bad friends and sometimes like selfish in a very different way.

[24:06] that makes the truth of how do you... [24:09] give to people outside of your own self complicated. And that sucks because it should just be, how do I love people more and how am I... [24:19] additive to my communities and [24:22] I think... [24:23] It's interesting, the church community that I was a part of, like their tagline, their brand statement was in Brooklyn as it is in heaven. [24:33] And this idea that like, [24:35] heaven is loaded for people and like it's loaded for me but the idea that like [24:38] a place [24:39] outside of pain. [24:41] And how do you try to show up in the world every single day [24:46] making sure that you're not causing pain and [24:50] that seems really simple but when you go about your day and you actually look at your actions every single day [24:55] That's actually... [24:56] challenging in the, in moment by moment life. Yeah. And so I don't have a thought, any more thoughts than that really on that, but yeah, [25:07] It's interesting. [25:09] We're in a dynamic, [25:11] religious environment. We sure are. We sure are. And all that said, I'm interested in other, I'm like, maybe we should go to temple, maybe we should go to [25:19] um, [25:19] what's that thing that Hosier is that I've been talking about recently? Uh, [25:23] - You wanna go to a Quaker church, you're keeping like, what about a Quaker community? - Quaker, a Quaker community. - I don't think that's it for you, but you know. - I'm like, I, I, [25:30] So anyway, if anyone wants to give your recommendations. Mosque. Totally. I guess also to that point, I just want to say if anyone is like who is listening, who is very deeply religious and feels really offended by how I'm like picking and choosing, I'm sorry. I hope that you are listening with some generosity to know that it's in good faith.

[25:46] the best of intentions best of intentions and i know that for [25:51] That's true. And if you're listening and you're close... [25:55] member of my family wondering what my religious beliefs are let's talk in person [26:03] oh my gosh if people were with this topic let us know because we maybe i'll start like a religion channel in the discord or something so we can talk [26:11] So I can just get triggered constantly. [26:15] Okay, let's end it there.