Ep. 71. How the hospitality industry is unlocking loyalty using web3 with Ben Leventhal, founder Blackbird and co-founder of Eater, Resy

[00:00] Too hard in the paint on the filler, I fear. [00:02] I fear too. Hard to walk that back. [00:04] very impossible. [00:07] Impossible. [00:08] Uh, [00:09] Okay, hi. [00:10] oh recording yeah we've been recording this whole time welcome to boys this is a show where we bring on people much smarter than us to talk about the new internet i'm natasha hoskins i'm dina burke and this is boys club wait is it just boys club it's just boys club the boys club podcast no just boys club okay hey how you doing [00:33] I'm good. I am good. I am... [00:36] loving, [00:38] doing this job, you know? [00:40] Yeah, me too. Having so much fun. [00:43] Having so much fun. [00:44] It's a new era. [00:46] for [00:47] Boys Club and it's a new era for us personally as well. [00:51] We're in our new era. We're in our new era. I've been listening to the... [00:57] There's a new acquired season. [00:59] Mmm. [01:00] And the first episode is Nike. Oh my gosh. For real? [01:04] For real. Oh, gotta go. It was very good. Listen, long run in a acquired. Long run. I've been listening to it on my runs. Oh. And I've been listening to Nike. And it's. [01:11] it's [01:12] Very good. So I don't know, just a plug for acquired. It's a great podcast. It's a great listen. And I don't know, nothing else doesn't have anything to do with Ben Leffet. Our podcast guest for today. Wait, I have to tell a funny story about this episode. [01:28] Well, first of all, we had Ben Leventhal on the podcast.

[01:30] He is... [01:32] a legend. [01:34] in the tech hospitality space. He was the founder of Eater and Resi, and now he's working on a new company called Blackbird that is [01:45] blockchain enabled. So we'd love to see it. And he talks a lot about what he's building and why he's building it. And it's great episode. So I was editing it yesterday and I texted you and I was like, man, sometimes we're so cringe on this podcast. And you were like, I can't even hear it. I cannot even hear it. And I have to say that there was one point where he's like talking about when he was at Resi, he was talking about the importance of UX UI and that they had this two click platform. [02:12] test to get to a reservation. [02:14] Meaning you have to, you can only have two clicks or two taps before you're, you know, [02:21] And then you're making a reservation. Exactly. And he says that. And you and I both at the same time go, hmm. Hmm. [02:29] And it's so cringe. Like it is so cringe. I like couldn't, I like had to like pull my ears out. Like my headphones. I was like, I hate it here. And I was like immediately, immediately muting us. [02:44] editing it. I was just like, and he's kind of like, yeah. [02:48] And I'm like, wow, we've been working on Web3 way too long. That's a reflection of... [02:54] simplicity that I think we've been missing yearning for year. Yeah. After me, like bridging to base to like mint the NFT for the first day. Yeah, I'm I am hungry.

[03:08] for a two-click experience. [03:11] Anyway, great episode. I really am so juiced on what they're building. Like, it's a little embarrassing. I think it just... [03:20] all the ways in which I [03:22] want to see this world [03:25] use this technology to actually affect people's daily lived lives. And the things that I love, like eating out and supporting the amazing restaurateurs that make New York so cool, and all these other places around the world. I love a real problem, [03:40] being met with [03:41] a solution that makes sense. And that's what you have here. [03:44] - Nice. [03:46] clicked stop on the record of the podcast, he revealed that he [03:50] listened to a few episodes and that was really sweet yeah immediately i was like oh [03:55] I love you. All it takes is a, he didn't even compliment. It was just like, I've been listening. He didn't compliment. He did actually have a really insightful language for us around. [04:05] community and he was like i know you guys bristle at community the word community but it's really about like connectivity and i was like wow it's like really insightful that was not recorded that's not in the podcast but it was said [04:18] It was. OK, enjoy. Hey, Natasha, if someone wants to get into crypto or is looking for a better way to trade, where should they go? Oh, Dina, I'm so glad you asked. The place to be is Kraken. It's more than a crypto platform. Kraken is your bridge to the new world of finance. A simple, gorgeous place to trade with a redesigned trading interface that's so easy to use. From Degen to DayTrader, first timer to full timer, make your trades in just a few clicks.

[04:48] Kraken.com backslash boys club. Sign up in just a few minutes and you can even get started with as little as $10. We love you Kraken. [04:56] Okay, on today's show, we have Ben Leventhal. He was previously the co founder of eater and resi and is now working on the next great hospitality platform Blackbird. He's a real tech meets hospitality legend. Ben, welcome to the show. [05:11] - Hi guys, thanks for having me. - We're so excited to have you. So much of what we think about at Voice Club is how all of this very cool emerging technology actually meets the real world and real people. So excited to talk about Blackbird and how that's the case for what you're building. I'd love to start by giving listeners [05:26] a grounding for what you're working on. If you could give us like a quick rundown of what you're building, what pain points are you trying to solve for, for both restaurants and consumers? [05:35] - For sure. So, you know, we endeavor for Blackbird to be a next generation loyalty and connectivity platform for the restaurant industry. A key observation that we're making is that restaurants and guests [05:46] aren't particularly well connected today. If you think about how most restaurants work, and you look around the dining room, [05:54] It turns out the restaurants don't really know who are there. [05:56] And in an industry with razor thin margins and virtually no marketing tools, I [06:02] off the shelf [06:04] that feels like a big problem. It feels like a big opportunity to help restaurants solve. So we think about the world... [06:10] as our world is being about connecting restaurants and guests one-to-one directly on an ongoing basis. [06:17] and building the tools and the software and the platform to allow them to do it.

[06:21] that's [06:22] Sounds incredible. And I think one thing that comes up a lot in conversations in [06:28] Web3 and crypto is this idea of interoperability, where we're able to take these tools, and especially from a loyalty perspective, one day in the future, be able to sort of map the [06:39] consumers and customers across [06:42] different entities, different restaurants, different bars, different wallets. How much is that playing into sort of the vision of Blackbird? [06:49] Yeah. [06:50] I think in the short term, we feel like there are some [06:53] basic things we need to do to stand up the platform. [06:56] but I think you're exactly articulating the long-term opportunity. [07:01] which is to allow restaurants and allow entities of all kinds to find [07:07] they're [07:09] most enthusiastic fans and [07:11] build channels to them. [07:12] I want to dig in a little bit around the... [07:16] sort of models and economic positioning of a restaurant. And you talked about razor thin margins and the lack of sort of knowing your customer. And I've heard you talk about when you started Resi that a lot of what you're doing was a lot of things. [07:29] the success of Resi was because there were two technological or like two pain points that restaurants were facing this outdated pricing model. And then the lack of, [07:39] the evolution of tech to catch up to what OpenTable or other competitors were doing, i.e. like mobile first to reservations. I'm curious if you're seeing sort of a similar moment happening with the tooling of Web3 in relationship to those pain points that restaurants have faced for a long time and how you see loyalty and what you're building.

[07:57] really [07:58] informing and improving that experience for restaurants. [08:02] Yeah, I think that [08:04] Restaurants are... [08:06] an interesting playing field for a lot of reasons. And obviously the, [08:10] The playing field that I've picked [08:12] Maybe by mistake or maybe on purpose, but... [08:14] It's the only real playing field I know. And one of the things that [08:18] I've [08:19] always found fascinating about the restaurant industry is [08:22] how humongous it is relative to the sort of [08:24] scale [08:26] And, um, [08:27] capabilities of the average restaurant and and the reason i think that that [08:31] plays into your question is because given the subscale nature of most restaurants, it actually turns out it's really hard for restaurants to stay on the cutting edge of technology unless they have [08:42] partner companies like Resi [08:45] and hopefully like Blackbird, [08:47] to help them stay on the cutting edge. And I do think what [08:50] we're seeing over the last several years is that [08:53] Certainly, the behavior of the average consumer and the expectations of the average consumer relative to technology [09:01] have [09:02] progressed beyond what the restaurant has at its disposal. As far as Web3 being consumer grade, I know your audience, and I know this maybe will not be super popular, [09:14] but I don't think it's consumer grade yet. I think that there are opportunities brewing and we sort of have a whiff of it. We have a hard agree with that. You're preaching the choir. Yeah, don't worry about us. You know, I think we're sort of catching a whiff of where [09:27] where this leads and where the consumer

[09:30] Great use cases are [09:32] But so I would say from a [09:36] product perspective. [09:38] The Web 3 piece of the opportunity is not staring us in the face yet. [09:43] I think [09:44] more broadly what restaurants [09:47] do need is, like I said, connectivity tools. You know, even sort of when you think about how a reservation website works, that starts to feel like a little bit of a dated UI, these sort of [09:59] you know, 6 o'clock, 7:30, 10:15 bricks, [10:03] as the sort of [10:05] options and the only way to [10:07] get yourself in a seat, that starts to feel a little bit dated. And I think we're all kind of sensing that. And that's not in any way... [10:14] Um, [10:15] an attack on OpenTable or Resi or any of the other services. I think everyone's thinking about the same thing. But to me, that's the, [10:23] The short-term opportunity [10:26] is simply to make the [10:28] product experience of going to a restaurant better. But I certainly think in the long run, [10:33] you know, some of the capabilities [10:36] of the blockchain. [10:37] are going to be really important and really exciting. [10:40] Okay, let's talk about that consumer grade. [10:43] experience. So obviously, when I think about Rezzy, the experience of using that product is like just so seamless. It's incredible how it was designed. And that really feels like, yeah, aspirational, certainly for the industry that we're in, in crypto and web to have that lack of friction, I'd say, when you're thinking about Blackbird, like what is the consumer experience going to be with engaging with Blackbird or

[11:06] Will it be like in the stack and you're just engaging with the restaurant? I'm curious. [11:10] what the sort of front end experience is going to look like. [11:13] Yeah, we think about it as being... [11:15] very streamlined and very straightforward. One of the [11:20] rules we had when we built the Resi product, which I don't think [11:24] I don't think we talked about it. I've talked about this too much, but [11:27] The rule when we were designing that product was that you had to have a reservation confirmed in two taps. And so from the time you open the app to the time you confirm there has to be a two tap path. [11:39] And [11:40] I think it's safe to say there's a similar philosophy [11:44] that's driving us at Blackbird. [11:47] a reservations platform. [11:49] and it's not a POS company, so [11:51] in some ways, [11:52] for the restaurant. [11:53] This is a more greenfield exercise. But I strongly believe in super low friction, [11:59] experience where [12:01] the product can be a little bit anticipatory and a little bit smarter than maybe you expect it to be. And in doing so, make it feel like magic. So the Blackbird app is really about us [12:15] displaying for you and kind of keeping track of all the [12:19] restaurant connections that you have and surfacing the ones that are the most relevant to you in the moment that you're looking at the app and hopefully that's going to lead to discovery and [12:29] connectivity may be in less than two taps. [12:31] maybe zero taps if we get the magic right. One thing that I've read about Blackbird is that you guys are sort of like the tooling and the stack that you're going to be

[12:41] working with restaurants on [12:43] But there, actual [12:45] the design of their loyalty program, what they're providing to their customers, that is going to be designed by the restaurant. Is that correct? Or how are you thinking about that? [12:55] Yeah, absolutely. Blackboard's a platform. It's not an app. Okay. Looking at the state of the market, we're in the deep bear market. And, you know, crypto has become this sort of very polarizing word. And it sort of always has. But especially right now, we're feeling that. And Web3, all these things that two years ago were really interesting and everybody was talking about were super hot. There's definitely a more polarized sentiment around it. [13:25] about, you know, really being in the right place at the right time and a lot of the success happening because of the timing. And I know that you're obfuscating all of the Web3 away. And that's the whole point. But you have to be talking about with these restaurants, like, [13:38] why you're different. And I'm curious how those conversations are going and what the response is. You've been able to onboard incredible restaurants, Corner Bar, Estella, you know, John and Vinny, all these great restaurants that I personally love. And so what are those conversations like? What is [13:53] sort of the sentiment as you're going through it with them. [13:55] I mean, so I guess one thing I would just sort of clarify is, you know, I think about it more as abstracting Web3 versus obfuscating. I don't think we're trying to sort of... [14:06] hide it. [14:07] I think we're just sort of trying to figure out [14:10] Again, from a consumer standpoint, what do you need to know to make best use of this thing?

[14:16] And I just don't think there's a lot of crypto you need to know right now to make use of it. [14:20] The next sort of milestone [14:23] from a crypto standpoint is, [14:25] you know, when we think about [14:27] variations on custody. [14:29] when we allow for [14:30] certain [14:31] assets on the platform to [14:33] be self-custodied, [14:35] then obviously we're going to sort of have to introduce some new principles into the UI. But we're using crypto as needed. [14:41] from a product standpoint, and not more than that. And I think [14:45] I would say the conversations with restaurants [14:48] have been quite varied. [14:50] And [14:52] most of them are really not about Web3 at all. [14:55] They're about [14:56] us helping restaurants solve [14:59] these known issues with the business. [15:02] I think restaurants [15:03] restaurateurs [15:04] that are more [15:06] crypto savvy. [15:07] have questions and curiosities and frankly a great deal of excitement about what we're building but those operators are not [15:16] the norm. [15:18] The conversation is more around, okay, how does these NFC chips work? [15:23] this information that I'm getting about customers, where do I get, where do I, [15:27] see it, how do I use it, [15:28] If I want to build a three-tier loyalty program, [15:32] Tell me about how that works. What are the design specs for these loyalty? [15:36] Cards. [15:37] just much more kind of down the middle. [15:39] questions? [15:40] But certainly when an operator asks us, do we get tokens, [15:45] We're super excited by the question. Yeah. You know, it's encouraging.

[15:50] For sure, and I would say invigorating when a restaurant's [15:54] And the rest of the church is thinking about, you know, the potential value of, [15:58] a token allocation down the line, but [16:00] but it feels like [16:01] most operators [16:03] have some stuff to learn first. Yeah. Yeah. But you're not encountering like, Crypto's Toxic, stay away. He's like, "Yes, we are." I would say [16:13] One in ten conversations. Okay, nice. There's some skepticism. [16:17] Not bad. I'll take it. I'll take it. I do want to ask a question around a lot of what you have been talking about has been a knowledge base about your customer. [16:25] or you're [16:25] who's coming and eating at your restaurant. Is that what I order? Is that when I come in? How often I come in? Like, what is the data that these restaurants want to know that they feel can [16:35] make their business better. [16:38] So I love this question because [16:41] We've been talking about data in restaurants for a decade now. [16:45] and [16:47] There's plenty of data [16:49] that restaurants have at their disposal, and yet, [16:51] it sort of feels like the wrestling business has not improved very much at all. [16:55] In fact, margins have declined over the last 10 years. [16:59] Something about... [17:01] inundating the restaurant with data is definitely not working. [17:04] So what we're trying to deliver much more than [17:08] data per se is signal about [17:12] consumers and signal about [17:15] how to maximize the value of everyone who walks through the door so [17:19] What I mean by that, and for example,

[17:21] If you live near, close to the restaurant, you're [17:24] almost definitionally a potentially higher value customer. [17:27] If you can walk out your front door and be at the restaurant in 30 seconds, [17:31] you'll definitely go more often relative to the person who's visiting. [17:36] from out of town. [17:37] And that's the kind of signal that restaurants don't have readily available today. [17:43] that we need to put in front of them. [17:44] so that connectivity works. [17:47] I think it's just... [17:48] not at all about us, sort of. [17:50] - Raw data dump. - Yeah, that checks out. [17:53] Clearly, your go-to-market strategy is [17:55] These very cool restaurants that Natasha mentioned, John and Benny, Kornabar, Gertie's, super cool. [18:02] How much are you guys thinking about [18:04] other [18:05] adjacent categories in hospitality, nail salons, hair salons, [18:10] things like that. Dina's like asking for a friend. I'm asking mostly because I'm like, what I'm seeing you guys do. [18:16] doing is taking a very fragmented category and helping... [18:22] Potentially down the line, I mean, I talked about interoperability. I mean, I feel like that's a huge potential to be able to cross reference what's happening across all these different things in a neighborhood or in a region. [18:32] And so I'm now thinking about like the mom and pop nail salon down the street and with a really seamless app experience, I think that [18:39] meaningfully affect their business in a positive way. So yeah, how much are you thinking about other categories? [18:45] We're definitely thinking about them. I would say [18:47] Something like a nail salon is probably a few ticks out. We have a lot of work to do in the restaurant category first. - Yeah, sure, fair. - But I think any business where it's about, you know, connecting with a core group of customers and making those relationships more fruitful and valuable and longstanding, I think Blackbird works.

[19:08] Cool. Dina and I previously worked in travel and then I stayed in travel for a while before getting into crypto and I'm like, man, [19:14] Hotels. This is a hot, hot use case. Being in this space, there is definitely this moment right now where it's like, okay, loyalty is the killer use case for blockchain. This is going to be the consumer application that unlocks everything for this industry. And I... [19:30] can see where it's this like incredible flywheel effect where [19:33] Everybody's winning the platform, the consumer, and in this case, the restaurant. But I can also see where it just becomes this new surface area for really spammy marketing content that's like 15% off coupon. And that's not really providing true value to the end consumer at the end of the day. So I'd love for you to talk about how you guys or in partnership with these restaurants are thinking about designing loyalty and equity. [19:57] designing for that type of flywheel effect. [20:00] Yeah, I think actually loyalty [20:03] which obviously is a word we use [20:05] a lot [20:06] and [20:07] This is perfectly [20:08] reasonable word. I think the problem with the word loyalty is, you know, you do sort of think about [20:13] 30% off. [20:16] SPAMY [20:17] noise and it sort of feels [20:20] unpleasant in a way and also like embarrassing redeeming a coupon at like a i'm like this is a little bit embarrassing it's also embarrassing for the restaurant yeah [20:29] You don't want to be offering 30% off. That's not a good look. Right. Restaurants are premium, cool, luxury spaces. [20:37] I want to pay full freight. Yeah.

[20:39] But I think it's about really [20:42] loyalty meaning [20:44] how can we [20:45] grease the skids where relationships and opportunities [20:49] do exist, [20:50] to make the relationship better on both sides. [20:53] A place that you've already been three times. I'll come back to the neighborhood example, a place that's close by, [21:00] a place where [21:01] We've already got a signal that you're pretty much committed as a customer. [21:06] And so how do we just make that experience better? And this is in some ways our job. [21:10] in terms of [21:11] building this platform. [21:13] is to do things other than give restaurants tools to offer 30% off. [21:17] That's really, to me, loyalty is reducing friction. [21:20] where everyone's interested, but we can do something to improve the tactical [21:26] So easiest example here is, [21:29] I don't know about you guys, but for me, I generally go to the restaurants. [21:33] that [21:34] I [21:35] know are the easiest for me to get into. [21:37] there. [21:38] nearby and [21:40] I know I have the number or they're nearby and there's always a table. [21:44] or I know I'm going to get a quick response. I just feel like it's easy to ask, it's easy to get in. It's in the neighborhood. I was at a restaurant this weekend, [21:54] which I hadn't been to in a while, because I didn't really know [21:58] who to ask for a table, [22:00] and I didn't want to bother the owner of the restaurant. [22:02] I kind of felt silly, it was like a big group, and I was like, "I don't really want to do [22:08] But the restaurant was like half empty, so like,

[22:10] They definitely wanted my business. [22:13] And so that's to me where the opportunity of loyalty is, is to sort of say, okay, [22:18] How do we just make this easier? How do we as a restaurant make sure you understand when you do want to visit, [22:24] It's super easy for you. [22:26] Like, we'd love to see you. [22:28] I think we're gonna post something on the supersonic. [22:30] over the next couple of weeks. [22:32] around like VIPs. Like, I don't understand why restaurants are so stingy about their VIP lists. Why are restaurants like [22:40] not making half of the people in the room VIPs. They're complaining about how many people walk through the door. They don't have enough business. [22:48] Make more people VIPs. [22:50] That to me is loyalty because VIPs come. We know about VIPs. They show up more often. [22:54] So I think those are the sort of [22:56] ideas around loyalty that we're thinking about. [22:59] And for all the obvious reasons, [23:00] pushing restaurants away [23:02] from couponing. Nice. Great. You and Dina would be great dinner partners because she's just like... [23:09] We're walking down the street and she's like, this is where we're going to eat. And I'm like, no, we're going to take a 20 minute cab to where I would like to eat. And she's like, I'm going to kill you. So anyway, this would be a big unlock. So Dina is a regular. [23:21] You're a restaurant. I am like that's two different cohorts of customers. That really nails it on the head. Okay, Ben, thank you so much for all this. It's so exciting. You guys obviously are doing a ton of building like what's [23:35] Next, what's on the roadmap? So over the next couple of weeks, you're going to see us ship... [23:40] I'm a

[23:41] a feature called power-ups. [23:43] so that [23:44] when you walk into a restaurant and check in, like something awesome might happen. [23:48] that you can then kind of have as like [23:52] something that's maybe redeemable or like, [23:55] Maybe you power up his access to an SMS. [23:58] reservations line, just sort of [24:01] using the power-up as sort of a [24:04] as a parcel of [24:05] access or parcel of hospitality. [24:08] And obviously that's a reference to the universe of video gaming, but like when you walk into a restaurant, we want Blackbird to feel like a kind of magic Dakota ring. [24:16] And we feel like power-ups are sort of part of that. [24:19] part of that bill. [24:20] That's coming very soon. We will have some fundraising announcements coming up, probably in the end of Q3. [24:27] And we're launching LA and San Francisco before the end of the year. Cool. That's so exciting. Well, Ben, thank you so much. We're so excited about what you're building and I'd love to see, [24:38] real world use cases for real people using this type of technology. So it's really exciting. And thanks for your time. [24:45] Absolutely. Thanks for having me.

[25:15] dumb questions about our account and they were so nice and so patient. It just takes a few minutes to get started today at kraken.com backslash boys club. [25:23] Okay. Draft tweets. Yeah. So I have two potential draft tweets. [25:32] that are... [25:33] centered around the Selena Gomez image. [25:37] wrapped in a blanket. I didn't know that it was her. [25:40] I [25:41] It is. It is her. It's amazing. How long did it take you to figure out that it was her? Oh, immediately. Immediately. [25:50] Oh, really? Immediately. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [25:52] Oh, I think she's unrecognizable. Oh, interesting. [25:56] Is that not the take that everyone has about that image? I think there's many a takes. The internet has taken. [26:04] End take and takes. [26:06] Um, okay. Um, [26:08] The first one is something that just happened on my feed and it was just felt like it happened to me and maybe I should share it with the world. You know, you're in a scrolling. [26:19] And there's her. And then right under her, there is an image [26:24] with Schillen, whatever his name is, Murphy, the guy from Oppenheimer. Oh, uh, [26:30] Killian? Killian? Oh, wow. I'm not sure. Shillin. Shillin. [26:38] And he's in one of his movies and he's like... [26:42] in a dark dungeon. [26:45] looking thing

[26:46] In a straight jacket with like leather wrapped around his arms. And he's in a chair. He looks crazy. [26:53] And the side-by-side is like, [26:56] Not so dissimilar. [26:58] We should do a tweet that's like same energy. That's what I was thinking. But I'm like... I could see like hardcore Selena enthusiasts being like... [27:11] Like I'm making some joke about her mental health and I'm like, no, it's just like the same. [27:15] Oh, wow. Oh, I didn't think that at all. Okay, great, great, great, great. Because that's not the joke. Does she suffer from mental health issues? I don't know. [27:22] I don't know. Okay. Yeah. Hard to, you don't want to risk that, but I think it's both of, [27:26] Both those image art. [27:28] They're in the public discourse enough that I think. Okay. Great, great, great, great, great. It's not, it's not that deep. Like I'm not making some deep comment. [27:39] her like that, that image of her, of Selena, and then [27:44] With the other meme, which is like how my email finds you or like how my, how does it go? Oh, do you like that better? It's funny. Yeah. Yeah. [27:54] Yeah, I kind of like that one better. Okay. I kind of like that one better. How your email finds me. [27:59] How your email finds me. Yeah. Okay. [28:01] Okay. And I do think there's a strategy to quote tweeting the pop base of [28:07] image, which is the core where I began. [28:10] I'd love any social media managers who are listening to tell us if this is right or not, because my understanding is that quote tweets don't get.

[28:17] good action on the timeline. Oh, really? [28:20] Yeah, I heard that the other day. So if listeners, if you know. [28:25] Let us know. Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait. I just had a breakthrough. I just had a breakthrough. What if I do both images and say how my email finds... [28:33] And it's both. [28:35] Is that funny? We're merging. It's the merge. [28:39] Let me think about it. I need to visualize it. Let me get it together for you here. [28:44] I think it's too much of a mental load. Too much cognitive load? Yeah. [28:47] you're obsessed with cognitive load i think simpler is better okay i'm disappointed because this this two image next to each other is really good i wish we could a b test it i know you could [28:59] I know me too. [29:01] Anyway, we'll find out. [29:03] Follow us on Twitter if you want to see how it goes. [29:08] Okay, bye. Okay. [29:11] Dina, where are we going to be in September? We are going to be at Permissionless in Austin, Texas. Permissionless too. It's happening. And we're curating the culture track for the conference. So if you're into the stuff we talk about here, you should come and have a good time with us. So email your boss. Tell them that you need to go and buy your ticket now. They will never be as cheap as they are today. [29:33] We also have a promo code in our Discord for Boys Club members. Come hang in Austin. [29:41] This is where we make an ask. We're in our call to action era. It's CTA times. Rate and review this podcast. Subscribe to our newsletter. And if you're feeling extra generous...

[29:54] Send it to one friend. [29:56] Thank you for listening. We love you. Bye.