Kimberly for President | Gaby Goldberg (Gaby.eth)

[00:00] This is such a treat. Recording. I know, but you can't do that because Draft Weeks is at the end. [00:05] Oh, okay. [00:07] It's not a treat. This is horrible. I hate it here. [00:24] Just boys club. [00:26] Hi. Hey. How's it going? Good. Do you know what's Boys Club? So, Boys Club is a... [00:33] A product, a Web3 product studio and MediaDAO. Wow. Yeah. I love. Yeah. It's shorter. It's crisper. [00:40] It is a little bit crisper. Yeah, we lose. Not quite as fun. It's not quite as fun. Not quite as fun. And we're really fun. [00:47] Are we not? I think we're pretty... I'm not feeling very fun right now. [00:52] On a good day, we're super fun. The funnest. Yeah. On a good day. [00:57] So, yeah, welcome to the podcast. We're the founders of... [01:03] of Boys Club. I have seen quite a few applications come in to Boys Club that found us through the podcast. [01:10] Amazing. So we need to care for these people and give them a little context. Like, I'm Dina and you're Natasha and we're the founders. And we're the founders. And what Boys Club is, is it's a movable feast of many different ways to... [01:25] be hanging out with us in Web3. Yeah. We have a podcast that you're listening to. Here we are. We have a newsletter where we talk about what's happening in the crypto world each week. We have an application-gated Discord where we hang out. Just a group chat. A group chat. Yeah. Don't be intimidated by the idea of Discord. Yeah. We all love to hate it together. Yeah. It's terrible, but not the boys' corner of Discord. Exactly. And then we're building products. We're...

[01:55] building some media properties. It's really fun. So we're really happy to have you genuinely. And what are we doing on the podcast? Yeah. So today we had Gabby Goldberg on who honestly, she just so Gabby.Eath. Very legitimate. She's so smart. She's so smart. She's so smart. You said this after the podcast ended, but I think it's really true. She has a really amazing ability to take very complicated [02:19] parts of the world and make them understandable. So accessible and accessible and, and fun and like interesting, easy, Yeah. So I think that's a real gift. And she gave that gift. [02:33] Um, she was awesome. We talked about, uh, [02:37] uh i i suppose consumer crypto consumer crypto yeah opportunities yeah yeah really and storytelling through the blockchain there it is that's what it was it was it was great so give that a listen and then after that we give an update on what we're confronted with in our feelings and in our dow um and innovation in the dow context and the challenges and upside of that and [03:01] And then we have some feelings. Yeah. But first... [03:05] Shout out to Moonpay. Shout out to Moonpay. So just a word from our sponsors. Moonpay is a sponsor of this podcast. We love them. You can buy and sell... [03:14] digital goods on their platform using like credit cards, Apple pay. It's super legit. It's super trustworthy. You're in and out in seconds, minutes of seconds. It's honestly like, I'm not surprised that they're, they're,

[03:28] like, like, [03:29] the leading web three that also, but also they're like, [03:35] You barely are in Moonpay. So, of course, they got to figure out how to get their brand out there elsewhere. Because you don't. That's why they're sponsoring this. That's why they're. But it's literally 30 seconds. And then you're back into whatever. It's so seamless. So seamless and so fast. So, Moonpay.com. Check it out. We love them. [03:54] Anything else? That's it. That's it. Enjoy. [04:02] Gabby Goldberg is an investor at TCG, where she helps lead the firm's investments in early stage consumer web three. She also writes about digital identity and internet culture on her excellent mirror, link in show notes. And I mean, honestly, I sort of think that [04:18] You're the consumer crypto queen. I sort of think that you earned that title. So welcome to the show, Gabby. Welcome. Well, now the pressure's on. Thank you so much. Long-time listener, first-time caller, as you guys know. I've been DMing the Boys Club Twitter account for so long. So I'm so excited. We love it. We're so happy to have you. The feeling's mutual. Okay, so as is tradition with our guests, we are playing Explain the Tweet with Gabby. [04:48] an inscrutable tweet or particularly fire tweet for you. I'm very interested to see where this conversation is going to go. So tweeted from Gabby.eth.

[05:00] Block explorers are tools for storytelling. [05:04] So Natasha, let's start up with you. What's your level of comprehension on this tweet? [05:08] Okay, so I feel like in some ways I'm tracking and in other ways I'm like there's a whole world that I'm not totally unaware of happening here. So I know what storytelling is. So starting off, I've got that down. [05:24] Block explorers are a question mark to me. I can like sort of context clues guess that there are people who are like... [05:31] scouring sort of like ether scan and trying to like figure out what people are buying and selling. And that's my assumption. But I want to hear I want to hear from you. What what's going on here? What's this tweet about? [05:44] Yeah, I mean, you got it off to a great start. The only thing that I would change about your definition is I would define what [05:53] Etherscan itself as the block explorer. So I define block explorers as almost like search engines for blockchains. And so for the Ethereum blockchain, Etherscan is just one example. [06:06] where it basically shows everything that has happened on the blockchain. And you can see all of the different transaction hashes and the different wallets and accounts that were involved with different transactions. And from there, you can kind of extrapolate. [06:19] certain things about what happened on chain. So for example, [06:23] You can go onto Etherscan and if you scroll all the way to the bottom of Gabby.eth, you can see like the first transaction that I made with this wallet. Or you can see the moment that I actually bought Gabby.eth and kind of gave this wallet like a sense of identity. Or you can see the different NFTs I bought. Or let's say like I got rugged on something. Like you can see when that happened. But I guess important to note and...

[06:48] I'll start my rant with this is that ether scan is not the only block explorer for aetherium. And there are like infinite possibilities or like infinite companies or teams that could build block explorers. [07:01] Specifically, I think there's a really huge opportunity for a consumer-facing block explorer. So... [07:09] Anyone who's listening, like if you have used Etherscan, you know that it kind of sucks. It like takes you so long to figure out... [07:17] What you're looking for. Yeah. Or you get to the front of the page and you're like, why are there all of these ads right here? Like, what am I looking at? How do I kind of, you know, how do I see something was like bought or sold or if it was just transferred or like, what do all these words mean? And it's very confusing. So maybe before I even... [07:35] get into... [07:37] what I want this to look like and why I think it could be a really cool tool for storytelling, just kind of backing up and talking about, [07:45] what motes in Web3 look like and kind of like switching costs for a product like this. So I feel like I have to do that because cool. So, I mean, I work in VC, so this is always like top of mind, like switching costs for different products and how something becomes defensible. And I think it's particularly really interesting in Web3 because... [08:06] Take traditional Web 2 B2B SaaS. [08:10] The switching costs for a SaaS product are pretty high. It's pretty difficult for a company to move from one piece of software to the next. Then take Web2 consumer, like Facebook, for example. The switching costs are already a lot lower, but still they kind of exist. So much of your identity is baked into Facebook authentication.

[08:40] It's kind of a hassle or a pain to like remove yourself from that network. Then you think about Web3 and especially Web3 consumer. Switching costs are basically zero, right? Like you own all of your own data and it's very easy to go from one place to the next. Maybe like even email is a good example here. [08:58] SMTP, the protocol for email, is an open protocol [09:02] And you can build whatever client you want on top of it. So now we have Gmail and Superhuman and Hotmail and self-hosted email. [09:10] And if I decided I don't like Outlook, which is what I have to use for work, I don't like Outlook. And I wanted to switch. Like I could do that. And I could like take all of my data with me. [09:20] Web3 is very similar to that, where you can kind of port your identity and port your data from one place to the next because it's built on these open and permissionless protocols. Specifically with block explorers, [09:30] The blockchain is the same, right? The Ethereum blockchain is the same. And you can choose to build a block explorer that looks a certain way, leveraging the same kind of data. [09:40] Upon first glance, you would think that there is like really only one way to do this, right? Like just show me the information, show me what happened on chain. [09:48] But my view is there's actually like... [09:51] a real bias that you can take by deciding which information to show or leverage or make more easily readable on a block explorer. [10:00] than something else. So for me, as an example, like I think it would be very interesting to, [10:07] To more contextually and semantically tell the story of your very first transaction on chain. Like, when did you get your first wallet? When did you really become crypto native? Or like, what were the first few things that you did on chain? Or maybe like, who are your...

[10:22] Web3, Internet, closest friends. Like, who do you interact with the most in terms of wallet to wallet behavior? And what do those relationships look like? Or even like timestamped contextual things like, let's say I sold my most expensive NFT. [10:36] What did I do with all of that newfound liquidity? And so all of these types of stories, you can technically tell... [10:43] on any block explorer, right? You can technically find out all of this kind of information on ether scan, but it gets pretty hard to do so. And particularly as, uh, [10:52] on-chain stories become like more in the weeds, it gets harder and harder to tell all of those stories. So... [11:00] Thank you. [11:01] I know I'm like totally ranting. So hopefully let me know if you guys lose me. Let me know if you guys lose me. But... [11:08] I guess like the second place where I'll take this and why I think it's so interesting is at TCG where I invest, kind of our framework for investing in consumer web three is we look for passion first. And then we see how it's really uniquely supercharged or unlocked by crypto. And so we're trying to figure out like where are these areas where people are already spending a lot of time, oftentimes spending a lot of money, but just like generally really excited and passionate about something. [11:38] be a huge audience as long as it's niche and deep and exciting, and that's really exciting to us. And I feel like there's this really interesting – [11:47] passionate group that is kind of forming around on-chain storytelling.

[11:53] And you can kind of see it in like the Nansen interns of the world. If you guys know that Twitter account. And I'm trying to think of like other Twitter accounts like that. I actually put out a tweet trying to find more, but it's basically all of these accounts that are sort of on chain sleuths where they kind of like tell interesting stories that they find on chain. And if it's happening on Ethereum, they're using ether scan to like tell those stories and show screenshots of what's going on. And so even like, [12:20] I saw one recently where Nansen intern put out this tweet of like, I found four wallets in 2018 that were all created in... [12:29] an hour apart, funded with a bunch of ETH, and then each of these wallets bought or minted like 100 CryptoPunks. And they were trying to figure out – [12:40] Yeah, they were trying to figure out if it was the same person. [12:43] who created all of these wallets, but then specifically like who that person is. Yeah. [12:49] And I think these stories are so interesting. And I think there's a real opportunity for a block explorer to build a really consumer facing and creator focused platform to allow these kind of on chain sleuths to be able to like be creators in their own right on the platform. [13:07] almost like as you think about dune analytics now which is like a web 3 analytics tool that showcases on-chain data people become creators in their own right on dune right like they put in their bio that they're a dune wizard like i think there's an equivalent to that on a platform like this and it would be really cool seeing this like new wave of like a real crypto native influencer come about based on like who can tell the most interesting stories i'm totally i'm so obsessed

[13:37] Think of like the... It's like taking the behavior of... [13:42] The TikTok, like, Dina's super into TikTok, and she was like, there's a whole world of people who are convinced that Taylor Swift is a lesbian. And I was like, and she was like, there's so much evidence. There's so much evidence. And then she starts sending me these TikToks of, like, these... [13:57] These, like, people who have created these whole stories based on, like, images and photographs and, like, compiling all together. And I'm, like, it's sort of taking – and they're, like, building their own content and storytelling around their, like, fan fiction almost about, like, Taylor Swift's, like – [14:13] Love life. And you're taking that type of behavior, but pulling it basically on chain. I think there's also another parallel. So shout out to the Gaylers. Love you guys. But also another parallel is the passion around... [14:28] true crime podcasts where people like start to do their own like crazy research and then like totally solve a cold case that's been like closed for like 20 years. Yeah. And literally, um, yeah, we need the, the, the first like true, true, true crime podcast for like on chain data, I suppose. Um, but yeah, I'm, I, I'm, I'm obsessed with this. I think like what I'd love to see there's like a, um, [14:55] a fluency that you see like with the Taylor Swift TikTokers, but like sort of just generally where people sort of have the language and the tools to be able to be like, okay, this person posted that then they tagged this person, right? Like we're also intimately familiar with the tools of web two that like we're able to,

[15:12] a lot of people are able to do that type of work and are motivated to. And I'm excited for the day where like that fluency can be mapped onto this on-chain data as well. Because for me, I find it, I find it really hard to, [15:24] I find it like... [15:25] impenetrable ether scan. And so I'm excited for the day that like that starts to become a little bit more accessible for folks. [15:34] Yeah. And I see really interesting like creator opportunities here. Like imagine you could create a, [15:41] like shareable links basically for like certain events that you want to tell stories about. So, I mean, I feel like I want to do like a slight spoiler, but I don't want to spoil too much, but I'm talking, I've been talking with a founder who's building in this space. And I really feel like he has hit the nail on the head for this type of idea. And we were talking about the Nansen intern story that I gave earlier with those four wallets. And he's basically using [16:11] down the rabbit hole and find out what else is going on. And... [16:17] See, I don't want to spoil the story, even though it's literally on chain, so you could go find it. But basically, he finds out that one of these accounts... [16:24] has had a transaction with someone who bought an ENS representing, uh, [16:29] A woman in crypto who I know and I look up to, but I had no idea was – [16:35] involved in the space in 2018 and you like keep going down and then you look at the punks that one of those wallets minted and it's like a lot of female crypto punks and I'm like oh this is interesting like is it this woman who has 400 crypto punks I would freak out and imagine if you had like how crazy and imagine if you had a shareable link and

[16:55] That you could now send out and bring people in. Or like paywalling different stories. Or maybe you could follow me and you can see... [17:03] like the curators or like the kind of like on-chain sleuths that I follow and see certain things, or maybe like get recommended different things. [17:12] people to follow or things to watch based on the other things that you're looking at and build this like block explorer recommendation algorithm and [17:20] And it's almost like with the TikTok example, it's almost like how you find community, you [17:25] in the comment section of all of these types of videos, right? Like if I, like if you guys listen to Serial and I listen to it, like now we have something to talk about or like at least the conspiracy theory that I'm on on TikTok is that Kim Kardashian is going to be the first female president. [17:40] which i support it i know i need to find the link and send it but it's so amazing i need to i need please i'm dying i have like i'm gonna find it i'll find it and then you get to the comment section and i'm like wow these might really be my people and like what is like what is the crypto version of that and so i think this is really interesting and it also goes to show that like [18:03] The interfaces that we use really matter. So it's obviously a beauty that all of this is permissionless and you can build whatever you want. But really, like, if you don't have the tools with which to engage with it. [18:15] a lot of these behaviors won't happen. So, yeah, it's interesting. It's like, not exactly, but it's adjacent to an idea that we've been playing around with boys club. Um, like, [18:25] a TMZ for NFTs, like going and trying to find celebrity wallets or wallets that have been doxxed and like linking it back to sort of like the story exactly as you're saying of like what what has happened.

[18:39] So shout out to the product guild in Boys Club because they've been sort of cooking up something kind of similar that I'm excited for you guys to see at some point, which is like, yeah, related to this idea of like, how do you contextualize your on-chain content? [18:54] Activity. And now I'm curious, Gabby, like, so the sort of use cases that we've been talking about are very voyeuristic, right? It's like, I want to like... [19:02] I want to peel back the Taylor Swift's Instagram and try and like find whatever it is. Or I want to – like it sort of is from the outside looking – [19:12] And I'm wondering, like, what are the other use cases besides voyeurism, which, by the way, is a huge use case. And like the Us Weekly empire is built on the back of that. Right. And like, there's plenty of value there. But like, where are some other things that... [19:30] could come out of that. Like, I'm just curious, like what, what comes to mind for you? [19:34] Yeah. So I think one of them that I sort of touched on is seeing kind of like the strength of the relationships between your wallet and other wallets. And I think the interesting thing there is at least when I went through this exercise with the founder, I was talking about. [19:50] I always talk about how our physical lives and our digital lives are becoming more and more similar, but it wasn't until I kind of went through this exercise with him and I saw that the wallets that were most closely connected to mine were like... [20:02] the people I work with and my brother. And then the person most closely connected to my brother was his boss and his roommate and like the girl who lives in his apartment building. And it was so crazy to actually see that. Yeah. Yeah.

[20:15] Even in a space as early as this one, it's already starting to mimic our real lives and figuring out... [20:21] kind of like why that matters and what that might look like in a digital native context. There's also definitely like a business case for this of figuring out [20:30] who your users are and then where they spend time [20:33] their other time. Yeah. So like, you know, maybe they're also following these certain projects or they're like copy trading these influencers, which means that like influencer marketing with these people might be the most interesting or effective and that type of stuff. I think also for people who like actually run, um, [20:50] businesses on chain or like, I don't even know if business is the right word, but like Flamingo DAO or Pleaser DAO curating assets, if you could follow them and then get a peek into the types of things that they look at before anybody else or be able to have some sort of like recommend, like recommend recommendation algorithm for like what they might be looking at next. [21:10] I think all of that type of stuff is pretty interesting. For all the entrepreneurs who are listening in on this podcast, Gabby has just dropped many, many free ideas. Yeah, request for a startup. The other thing I have, like, I'm in the middle of writing some – [21:24] something about this, but it's like so simple and so stupid that I don't even know if I should write something. But basically, I have this very... [21:31] silly framework that I always use when I look at social apps. And it's basically like social apps or consumer apps work when someone can be good at them. So for example, there's like a certain type of person who's really good at Twitter or a certain type of person who's really good at Instagram. And it's not necessarily the same person or like someone who's really good at LinkedIn. Right. And then you see it on these kind of like web three platforms. They're not even necessarily

[22:01] certain type of person who's really good at it. And I think there's a type of person that could rise to fame on a platform like this and figuring out what those social features are. [22:11] Just as like a place to spend time, I think would be interesting. This is so great. I feel like I have so many ideas percolating about especially some of the stuff that Product Kill has been working on. So honestly, thanks for dropping the knowledge. Thank you. Just opening up the mind on what's possible. And also sort of what you're saying too is that like in – [22:33] in building out something like this, you're creating another opportunity for additional types of influencers and people with a specific skill to have a platform where that skill can kind of like come alive and whether that's monetized or just becomes like a value asset to those people. It's really interesting to think about how those platforms sort of like surface this new type of like power user within within that work. [22:57] Okay, well, I'd love to hear, like in closing, what are some of the things you're really excited about in this space? [23:03] This space specifically or more broadly? [23:06] It can be Web3. Let's go wide. Web3 broadly. [23:10] Okay. So I think besides this, this is definitely one that I have been like noodling on and I'm very excited about the other one. [23:18] probably right now would be Web3 messaging, mainly because I have yet to see like a real... [23:25] killer use case take off. I know obviously we're early and there's a bunch of really interesting projects and founders building in the space, but I'm trying to figure out basically what

[23:34] really like this killer wedge is going to be for Web3 messaging to take off. I mean, we have one. We need it. Like, we really – [23:42] need web3 messaging to work because basically we have all these people who have [23:46] Our NFTs, main characters and zaddies. And as we are developing and evolving as a community, we're starting to layer on utility onto those NFTs. But we have no, besides Twitter and newsletter, there's no way for us to communicate the new utility with those holders. And it sucks. We sort of have to just do Hail Mary passes out to these Web2 broadcast channels. [24:16] And by the way, like, feel free to slide into our DMs. Happy to take a look. But I think I've always been missing, like, what that interface is that, like, makes it really present for people when a message is sent. So anyway, that's very, very tough of mind for us as well. [24:28] Also doesn't feel spammy. Like there's something about like being something sent to your wallet. That's like, yeah, that's not, that doesn't have consent. That feels really bad. And so how do you manage those, that tension? Yeah. [24:39] Yeah. So I think on that note, token gated messaging will be really interesting if like I only want people who at least have like this NFT or this verifiable credential to be able to message me. But then what you said, Dana, about... [24:51] kind of the actual interfaces, I think that's the bottleneck also. And it's like really clear. It's the common thread against all these consumer products of like, there are a lot of really cool web through messaging platforms that I kind of like play with. And I like send my friends messages on, but I don't actually go and spend time there. And so people are messaging me there

[25:08] How am I supposed to know? It's like if a tree falls in the forest. So it makes me think... [25:13] that it will be embedded either into a wallet or into a Dapp where people already spend a lot of time, like a Web3 super app, like Zapper type. [25:23] I think a wallet, but again, it's so hard to know. So I know we just said in closing and then we asked you a question, but in closing a second time, we were reading through your blog. And yeah, I just am such a fan. So excited for people to – I mean, everyone will have read it, but for those who haven't, you have this – [25:44] You framed sort of a conversation about wallets in this idea of linguistic relativity around the way that people think of the world as influenced directly by the language that we use to talk about it and that pertaining exactly to wallets being something that's challenging for this space. And so just bring us home with two minutes on that. We'd love to have that shared with our listeners. Yeah. [26:06] Yes, that's another thing that I need to like write. [26:09] a part two on, um, because actually I got a bunch of, [26:14] Like good pushback on that article where it's like, yeah, I brought up a problem, but like, what is the solution? Because the word choice you use is like actually very heavy. And then if you go around calling a gaming wallet, a console or like a digital fashion wallet, a wardrobe, all of a sudden you're not taking the thing back. [26:29] as seriously as it deserves to be taken. So I don't want to go and suggest those alternatives, but... [26:36] I do think that the word wallet limits us in a sense that like wallet kind of signifies that it's like...

[26:42] for storing static capital assets and it doesn't grow with you and it doesn't have a sense of identity. Yeah. [26:48] It's so tough. I really wish I had an answer. I mean, I think just to bring it back to our previous conversation, like it certainly doesn't, while it certainly doesn't mean to me message. So I think that that's like one of the immediately limiting things about it where it's like, I'm not going to be checking in on my zaddy NFT account. [27:05] messages in my wallet. I mean, I guess unless we train you to do that, but I think that's one of the [27:13] That's one of the sort of issues that we're coming up against as we're trying to solve some like very practical issues around like how we're communicating with people in our community. [27:20] Right. And imagine your wallet almost had something like a backdrop built in where you open it up and it's like, here are all of the action items for like, [27:28] the NFTs that you have or the communities you're a part of, of like, oh, like here's an event coming up with Boys Club or here's something going on with Pool Suite and you get to see it at the top. Yeah. That would be very interesting. And definitely not a wallet, but there's like something interesting there. [27:41] Nice. Yeah. Well, this is so rich. Thank you so much, Gabby. So great. Um, yeah, really just appreciate this so much. And, um, we definitely want to have you on again at some point soon. So thanks so much. Gladly. Also, I should mention, I wear the hat actually every single day and I almost wore it on this and then I was like, maybe that's too much. I love it. Nothing is too much for us. Never. No. Maxie's for sure. Um, well, thank you so much for, for coming on. We appreciate it. [28:09] Thank you.

[28:22] We're in the same room. We're recording live IRL. Yeah. We're in Bogota. Okay. What's happening in our DAO? So what's happening in our DAO is we're feeling very confronted. [28:35] by the dow structure and yet again yet again here we are week by week um with [28:43] The... [28:46] speed and iterative [28:49] Work. [28:50] that is required of an early stage. [28:53] company. [28:55] There's that, but there's also like... [28:57] Going deep versus going wide, which we've talked a lot about on this podcast as well. Yeah. So I feel like those things are coming to a head in a few different areas for me. And... [29:07] So that's sort of what we're thinking about. That's what we're thinking about. Yeah. I think it's. [29:12] Um, [29:14] And we are still, we are looking for product market fit. I mean, it's different because we're in a community and it's a DAO and there's all these different new novel ways in which we're organizing and which... [29:26] you know, in which we're structured, but like ultimately still in order for boys club to be a sustainable thing, we need to figure out where, you know, [29:36] there's... Yeah. [29:38] some fit where there's fit. Yeah. But I think there, what's challenge, I think what's challenging is like, we're looking for product market fit in like, [29:46] many areas like we're not looking for it in one that would be a criticism that we that would be a criticism would level i think you and i particularly because people are like

[29:56] You guys are going too wide. [29:58] Yes. But I think that there's actually a deeper level to it. Okay. Which is that... [30:03] innovating in committee doesn't work. Yeah. Yeah. [30:07] So... [30:08] I think that [30:11] And there's – and by the way, I want to preface this by saying – [30:14] This is, it's not a drag in and to any person on the team at all. No, not at all. It's, it's at all, like truly like not at all. [30:23] There's so much creativity and, like, willingness and openness to, like, explore other things and explore new things and ideas and, like, all of that. There's, like, there's so much space for that in Bulls Club. But it's just simply the structure of the DAO. [30:35] Where you have – where there's like – you have to have consensus and you have to have buy-in from the group and you have to vote on really important things. And you have to context share across – And you have to context share. I think that there's a tension there just structurally. Not even speaking about Boys Club, but just like generally structurally. I think that there's something that's at odds there to – [31:00] how innovation comes about. And like, ultimately we're looking for innovation. [31:06] Because there's not like a clear path for what Boy Scope is and what Boy Scope becomes. Yeah. And I think... [31:12] Thank you. [31:13] So like zooming out or like going back in time to us in, [31:18] A year ago, more than a year ago. [31:21] The startup we were working on was in the process of getting acquired. You and I were both feeling really...

[31:28] disillusioned by what it takes to have a startup and to have a successful objectively successful startup. [31:37] And I think one of the things that you and I both came to was like, wow, having... [31:42] a win having a startup win like a like a real like you know [31:48] objective win. [31:50] requires for it's lightning in a bottle. It's right timing. It's right team. It's right product. It's customer. It's market. It's everything. And that all has to come together. And a team that's willing to like work so hard to make it happen and find the opportunity in it. And like all of that has to come together together. [32:09] In a moment. And like that feels... [32:12] impossible, especially after you and I two rounds in being like, that's not going to happen. That was the feeling like that doesn't happen. And so where we landed was like, [32:23] What if it was, this was pre-boys club. What if it was a product studio? What if you're spreading your bets across the table? You're not going all in on black and hoping you work on it and it's going to come together. But what if instead, and like over the course of your lifetime, you have one successful startup or two successful startups or whatever. But what if you have four or five bets at the same time that you're working on, that you're like scrappily trying to get to an MVP, that you're not investing too much in tech or brand or marketing or anything, [32:50] specific area, but you're just trying to get to product market fit as like cheaply and quickly and innovatively as possible. And like, that's where we had landed. Like that feels like something that we would be excited about. Yeah. Then all these other things happen.

[33:03] and cut to a year later. And part of what we're doing is a prop studio because we really do have this belief that like to capture my eating in a bottle, you have to have a few bets. Yeah. [33:15] The criticism, I'm really going on a tangent, but I'm getting something. The criticism of that, if you talk to venture capitalists who are like, [33:22] investing in startups every single day, they would say, [33:26] And... [33:27] Half said. Half said. [33:30] That a product studio is a bad investment because you need like myopic... [33:35] intense focus on one. What it takes is everybody in the room all day, every day thinking about the same thing to get you to work. [33:45] meaningful product market fit and like a path to like scalable growth. [33:50] And we're feeling that tension. I think a lot of the people that I know who have run product studios have been wealthy people. [34:00] who like had some wealth and were like, okay, I'm going to try this model and then found success through it. But like, I do think, [34:07] that there's something there where it's like, [34:10] they're operating out of abundance. Abundance mindset. [34:15] Abundance mindset. So yeah. But I think that [34:19] product studio in Dow. Definitely. Like I, I think, well, I mean, [34:24] we're doing it. So like we believe in it, we believe in it. Yeah. We really, really believe in it. But I do think that it's sort of, you sort of have to give the product studio permission to, [34:33] to operate a little bit independently of the DAO. And so a lot of what the conversations that we've been having and like the things that we've been thinking about is like, how do we set this up as like a skunk works basically? Yeah. Where ideas are

[34:47] Maybe being incubated from the community or the DAO and maybe there's like some vetting that happens, but like you sort of want to let those folks who are doing the Skunk Works work. Have some breathing room. Yeah, have a leash to sort of – because you want to let them fail. Yeah. That's a big part of it. I learned so much from our interview last week with Steph. Totally. With Steph where she was like, you got to – [35:07] have space for that. You gotta have space for failure. Yeah. Um, [35:10] So, yeah, and I think they're... [35:15] Is something... [35:16] that I had a thought that I can't remember that it's left me. It's gone out to the streets of Bogota. Oh, it's come back. It's come back. Okay. That. [35:25] I had a conversation a few weeks ago, we both did, with someone who was like, yeah, you either have to be... [35:31] One product is, [35:33] All in so much conviction around the fit, every line of code you're writing, everything you're producing. [35:40] Or you have to just be like, [35:42] throwing stuff at the wall. Like early days consensus or something like that, where some of it is total shit and some of it is like MetaMask. Now I have to click the explicit button. Oh, so sorry. [35:55] And so that is like... [36:00] And if you are in the middle, you die. It's the zone of death. It's the zone of death. And I feel like we're very close to the middle. I'm like, we are edging on the middle here. And that... [36:11] I just really am focused on it. Yeah. I also think that like, I think we should look at why we want to do, have a product studio and why we're so attracted to that. Cause I think that it, it's a little bit rooted in a fair commitment from both of us. Yeah. So I would just want to keep a couple of eyes on that. Keep some eyeballs on that. So one thing I just want to, um,

[36:29] just want to make a note of that again, not even speaking about the boys club doubt specifically, just speaking structurally about boys club doubt where you're, you're getting consensus, you're voting on the things that are important and you're like working in a sort of communal, you are working in a communal environment. Yeah. Um, [36:47] Thank you. [36:47] I think that... [36:50] like innovation or ideas and risks, right? [36:54] aren't [36:55] really well suited to that type of environment where you are, where it can quickly go to, you know, [37:07] Like people, I don't know. I don't feel like people like to vote on risk. People, I don't know. Maybe that's not true. But certainly what is definitely true is that group things start to emerge really quickly. Yeah. And I think that, and maybe that's just like the way that we've set up things or I don't, I don't know. Like it totally could be, it definitely is a personal failing. Let's definitely bring it into that. But it is, I mean, in some way, like, I don't know, but maybe it might be, might not be. But anyway, related to that is like. [37:36] So, [37:37] The Invaders Dilemma. [37:38] Okay. It's this classic book. Okay. That talks about how... [37:43] like big, large incumbents, when there's a new technology that comes along, it's really hard for them to, um, to like capture it because they are going to go to all of their existing customers and their high value customers. And they're going to like interview and like, they're going to design what they think is the best thing for their high value, their existing high value customers. And then the innovators come into a category and they choose like what's perceived to be low value customers. And like, yeah,

[38:11] grab together some thing. And that ends up being oftentimes the thing that eventually has more value as it starts to iterate and as it starts to like... Okay. So the recommendation for the innovator's dilemma is that these big corporate entities should have side skunkworks labs, teams, or projects so that they're not in the like... [38:32] They're not the back foot. [38:34] Well, certainly they're not in the back foot, but they're also not in the machine of a big corporate entity where there's a lot of people and a lot of decision makers. And there's a lot of consensus that needs to be like had around these various decision decisions that are made. Someone is going to have read The Innovator's Dilemma and is going to listen to this podcast and say, you know, what the fuck are we talking about? But that's the real broad strokes, rough, rough outline of where we're at. Yeah. And I think that like. [38:59] I mean, I may have gotten that completely wrong, but I do think what is true is that [39:04] In the DAO structure, there's a similarity to that. Yeah. And... [39:09] I just think we need to be creative about how we allow for people who have a vision... [39:17] And an idea... [39:18] Even if they're not able to get consensus to like... [39:21] Sort of go off and try it. Yeah, totally. [39:25] Great. That's where we're at. That's what's happening in the Dow. That's what's happening in the Dow. Okay. [39:29] Hey, Natasha. Yeah, Dina. Who is this podcast sponsored by? This podcast is brought to you by MoonPay. And it's very easy to be sponsored by someone when you legitimately like them and think that their product is really great.

[39:59] When you're first exploring crypto, this is basically all you're thinking about. MoonPay changes all of that. It's fast and simple and incredibly user-friendly. They make it so, so easy to jump into Web3. So easy that you can use your credit or debit card to buy and sell crypto and other digital collectibles. For all you crypto-native people out there, you know that this is an absolute rarity. It's trusted by millions worldwide and loved by yours truly at Boys Club. Visit MoonPay.com to get started. We love you, MoonPay. [40:30] Okay, it's the feelings check-in. [40:32] We're checking in on our feelings. Um, so we're, I mean, you have heard us say many times. We are in Bogota. Podcast, we're in Bogota. Feelings Check-In is recorded in Bogota this week. Um, [40:45] Man, conferences are tough. Yeah. Emotionally. Yeah. And I just wonder if that's us. And like, if we've built a story around that, that like continues to feed itself. It's a vicious cycle. It's a vicious cycle. Yeah. Instead of just being like, this is fun. Yeah. We're like, oh, we've made this feel like. [41:03] is feelings intense. Yeah. But I think it just, I think it also is. I want to know for everyone who's listening, who has gone to crypto conferences, do you, do you have feelings? Yeah. Let us know. What if all of them are like, no. So it's just a really good time. Um, [41:19] I think there's two feelings that come up for me. Okay. Around it. [41:22] The first feeling I think you share because we've talked about it. The second feeling you don't. So the first feeling is like you just feel like you're –

[41:31] Like... [41:33] Not sure about where you're supposed to be at all times. Like, [41:38] I'm just like, you're feeling behind. Like you feel behind every, at every turn. I think just to clarify, I don't think you mean like you're at the wrong event. No, it's not like FOMO. It's not like that. The feeling is different than FOMO where I'm like, Oh, I wish I'd gotten invited to X event. It's not that it's like, [41:54] Am I absorbing the right information? Am I like getting the most out of this experience? That's what it is. Like, are you learning as much as you can? Are you networking as much as possible? Are you enjoying yourself enough? Like, yeah, it's horrible. So I'm tired and the altitude is high. So anyway, that's one feeling. And then the second feeling is... [42:17] I'm really confronted with [42:20] at these types of events of being a crossover figure and having a web two job and what are you laughing at that yeah you're you're a crossover star you're like i'm a musician and an actress who oh ew what i mean she went from country could you think of taylor swift oh my god you are making well it's so much worse um i get what you're getting at um [42:45] I'm trying to think of someone cooler, but whatever. I'm sure this is... That's where we're at. Yeah. [42:51] I... [42:52] I just like, it feels very, there's times where I feel super comfortable and totally fine with it. Yeah. And there's times where I'm like, Oh, do people just kind of think I'm a loser? [43:01] Yeah, I could tell that you had that feeling. We had a meeting this morning with a very lovely...

[43:05] woman and she was very kind and you were... [43:09] You said, I have a Web 2 job. And I just felt it radiate off you. It was really weird. Because I've gotten more and more comfortable with it. But today it felt like... And she was so kind about it, too. She had such a nice reaction. Yeah, she did. She did have a nice reaction. I just think people like... [43:26] She was surprised. People are one, always shocked. She was really shocked. People are completely shocked. And they're like, what? And then I'm like, there's so much like context sharing that like, it just like then all of a sudden we're like telling my life story. And I'm just like, I don't want to do this. Are you looking at the time and you feel like it's going too long? My feelings shrunken? Too many feelings. Just check the time. Time stamp me on my feelings. Just so you know, this is not therapy. [43:53] Anyway, I can wrap it up. [43:56] I am feeling really uncomfortable. I feel uncomfortable about it. And like, I just... [44:01] Yeah. [44:02] It surprises me because it ebbs and flows, the uncomfortability with it. And there's times where I feel great about it and there's times where I don't. And I feel like at conferences it feels... [44:11] It feels uncomfortable because I think... [44:13] I met with [44:15] There's a lot of people on Web3 who are so... [44:19] such purists yeah and they're like how the only goal is to work in web 3 that is the ultimate goal yeah and so it [44:27] When they hear that from me, they think, oh, she hasn't gotten to where she wants to be yet. Like, that's what I feel from them. Like, oh, she hasn't, like, figured out how to work in Web3. And it's like, no, I'm very...

[44:39] happy in my station in life. And like, you know what it is? I feel like I'm really good at my job. Yeah. And like, [44:46] what it's read in those conversations is that like, I haven't made it yet. And I'm like, no, I've made these choices intentionally. Okay. Yeah. And it feels like I'm not, I'm, [44:55] Either putting that on them or not getting... [44:59] that in the conversation and it feels bad yeah so you think that they're like [45:03] Oh... [45:05] It's not, she's not one of us. [45:09] It's not that. It's like, no, she's somehow failed. Yes. I think I get that from boys club where they're like, no, she's, she's in our tribe. Um, [45:18] Because of Boys Club. But she just hasn't. [45:20] But she's failed in some way. She's failed in some way to figure it out. Fundamental way to figure it out. Maybe. I don't know. Maybe not. And then like... [45:28] I have two personalities. I have like my boys club vibe and I have my day job vibe. And like, [45:36] I don't want, I don't like bringing that world into this world. I feel that distinctly, very distinctly. From me? Oh, no, from, I just feel that too. Oh, that makes me feel good that you have that same feeling. Compartmentalized. It's compartmentalized. It's like when your high school friends meet your like. Yes. Yes. You're like older friends. Yes. You're like, no, it's the same. The two shan't meet. No, don't. And then I'm taking on so much emotional labor for you do to get along. Yeah. And like in this case scenario, it's just my two personalities that I'm dealing with. So it's so uncomfortable. [46:06] my feeling yeah what's your feeling I don't know what your feeling is so I'm excited um I mean I I think that um

[46:13] Thank you. [46:14] I feel... [46:17] very pulled in a lot of different directions when I'm here right now, because I have my day job here and then I have boys club here and I'm [46:25] The two are meeting. Yeah. And it's tricky because of – [46:29] I feel that from you. Yeah. I feel bad. [46:33] Because I feel like the whole time I'm trying to pull you back into Boys Club. And you have a job. And you have to do your job. And I want... [46:40] you to be able to do your job and not feel like frustrated by the boys club stuff. I'm not frustrated by it. I want to hang out with you and I want to hang out with you guys. Totally. I know that the desire is there. Yeah. But I also think part of it is like, I don't feel like I can show up fully. [46:52] as myself in my day job. And I think that that's part of it. Where if it was like, oh yeah, like [46:56] Let's just all... [46:58] bopping around let's all hang out let's all hang out yeah i'll bring natasha to the cello stuff and oh she said it you said it was such a delight i don't know you're like [47:09] Yeah, totally. [47:11] But like the one time I did that, I was like, I felt so weird. Well, the one time you did it that I came to it, it was like a very nice, like everybody was like, [47:21] Just looking so nice and professional. And I showed up in a see-through top with a black lacy bra underneath because we were going to party after. And I was like, oh, my God, I'm not appropriately dressed. And everybody was like, hey. And I was like, hello. It was so awkward. So that, I think, fed into the awkwardness. But, yeah, it's complicated. Having two jobs is hard. Yep. That's sort of the feelings check in. There it is.

[47:47] okay i have i have a really you're really excited i'm really excited about this draft tweet i'm really really excited about it i don't know if you're actually gonna understand it okay i'm dying i'm dying to hear [48:04] Let's hear it. Okay. [48:06] Okay, it's past the Howie test, but does it pass the Vechdahl test? I don't get it. Howie Mandel? [48:16] No? No. So the Howie test, do you know what the Bechdel test is? I don't know either. You don't know either? Okay. So the Howie test is like basically what determines if a token is a security or if something is a security. Okay. Like anything. I mean, they're applying it now to tokens and stuff. So not Howie Mandel. Not Howie Mandel. And then a Bechdel test is in cinema. [48:40] Oh, okay. In literature or cinema. [48:44] If two female characters talk to one another... [48:50] not about men. Okay. Then it passes the vegetable test. Okay. Wow. Okay. Read me the tweet again. Okay. [48:58] *gasp* [48:58] This is this. I understand why you're excited. This is a thinker, but it's like good. Yeah. Okay. Okay. It's past the Howey test, but does it pass the vegetable? [49:09] It's really good. Okay, should I send it? You should send it. Ship it. Okay. [49:13] I don't have any, so that's where we're at. Okay, bye. Bye.